Nicolas Machiavel/Niccolo Machiavelli Myers-Brigs type - MBTI, enneagram and personality type info
"* Elite rule is bad (most INTJs of the time would have it the other way around)" what is this asumption based on. Btw, Machiavelli may be an ENTJ, do not disagree, but can also be a ENTP who dresses in Te-Ni to get what you want. There's something wrong here. ") on this point I agree with CT, and that's what I keep arguing. "Even if Machiavelli was not himself evil, Leo Strauss declared himself inclined toward the traditional view that Machiavelli was self-consciously a "teacher of evil," since he counsels the princes to avoid the values of justice, mercy, temperance, wisdom, and love of their people in preference to the use of cruelty, violence, fear, and deception. Here you can explore of famous people and fictional characters.. And I'm curious how you typed him 8, all I read suggests 3. I wrote that regardless of his opinions his functionning, his writing is ENTJ ("actual opinions are not as indicative of type as the way those opinions are presented, which is far more indicative of the subject’s cognitive functions. To sum up what I have written in the french section : Machiavelli, according to his biography, was action-oriented as opposed to a theoretician. I was simply trying to make the point that enneagram type can greatly change political views and actions regardless of Myers-Briggs, as can numerous other factors. ISTP is a new one here and I'm genuinely interested to read your reasons behind it, unless you're just trolling in which case, continue by all means. He resembles Talleyrand, that the Internet is seen as an ENTP, which greatly helped Napoleon in social theater. Also in it he does endorse deceit and brutality when it's useful : be feared so that citizens won't rise and be killed for example, to keep control because it helps everyone if you know how to rule. The MBTI questionnaire sorts people into one of 16 different personality types.. He is clearly Ni+TeStrauss' account of Machiavelli and his interpretation of The Prince is universally accepted as flawed but even he agrees that Machaivelli arrives at a point from multiple angles and even then his own position isn't ascertainable. Anyway, not much is known of him. " Machiaveli was pragmatical because he had in mind the concrete applicability of his rules for the greater good (Te). He doesn't theorize much, he gives a set of rules on what is the most effective in his opinion. Machiavelli reminds me more Talleyrand than Napoleon. Throughout the whole book his clear goal is above all efficiency/effective decision-making, his rules are clear and categorical, there's only one good way of doing things : his. Every problem has its unique solution to solve it, and almost all of those rules aim at preventing problems to happen. Machiavelli upheld republican values as superior to monarchies and dictatorships. And actually literally all his other works ,like Discourses on Livy, are in service of republicanism. Where is the apology for dimensional thinking. All of which scream Te dom. " This is just twisted so that it sounds more P, the logical sentence would be something like "No one man can be a genius in every role, so the state should give a specific work (general, politician, etc. What is the best option for the MBTI type of Nicolas Machiavel/Niccolo Machiavelli? What about enneagram and other personality types?. Type 8 is a new one here, isn't it. The Prince is a structured set of rules to follow if one means to keep power. Though I don't write that and do the opposite right after. ENTJ could also, but because it more like staying in politics and love the debates no purpose to master the external environment, I think it could go further ENTP. "I think it is a very well known fact, at least its historically more likely, that Machiavelli never endorsed the brutality and deceit used by politicians and kings (as described in The Prince). Other ENTP 8s (Mao Zedong, Henry Kissinger, Socrates, etc. Anyway I like that you think of the way MBTI types and enneagram types interact, I find people don't do that enough here and tend to type wrong because an enneagram "interferes" with a MBTI type for example. I am inclined to ENTP because it was described as being very kind, changing faces according to the situation and loving flexibility in government most of all. And the way was quite satirical, was an obvious exposure to get rid of such a situation.
. " That doesn't surprise me from him :) but that doesn't mean at all he didn't think The Prince was the best course of action under a monarchy, or that he didn't endorse it. Loyal to their peers and to their internal value systems, but not overly concerned with respecting laws and rules if they get in the way of getting something done. Detached and analytical, they excel at finding solutions to practical problems.. Of course, one ENTJ would do it, but the conclusions are rather analyzed in events with play on words. Keeping political power in place and safe is better than chaos and helps everyone. I haven't read the Discourses, amongst the quotes on wikipedia I read ". And since his life itself was more reminiscent of someone upholding republican values its safe to assume that this actually was what he held noble in personal capacity. Even if not directly tested, public voting can provide good accuracy regarding Nicolas Machiavel/Niccolo Machiavelli Myers-Briggs and personality type!. ENTJ 3 it is :)He could very well be an ENTJ 3. Republican or not, he was ENTJ. Machiavelli really makes apology to clear and direct orders and distant and focused planning, but also quite dispersed. In all honesty all his life's work were so multi-faceted, exploring all faces and ideological view points of politics that its hard to see Ni in him. (= The fact he had an "highly adaptable nature" is in my opinion due to him being enneagram 3, which, has Typer pointed out, correlates with Te. It never was the political doctrine of Machiavelli personally. However, the primary argument here was ENTJ vs. ) to those who are the more talented at it. '' The Prince '' seemed to me quite like a satire, a metaphor, an inspiration that could analyzing. I wouldn't call having two ways of doing that (one being the most practical in a given time, the other an idealist plan for the distant-future-but-lets-hope-not (like Marx, Nietzsche (who loved Machiavelli's work), other NTJs) "endlessly experimenting with numerous different ideas". Your arguments seem based much more on type stereotypes rather than cognitive functions. From wikipedia : "Some commentators have described him as inconsistent, and perhaps as not even putting a high priority in consistency. Again I don't get it. For those who voted NTJ, Machiavelli wasn't Machiavellian himself. An empty robotic face, but with eyes shrouded with whim and mystery. ENTJ 6w5 Te desire of order (all the prince is a practical book about keeping power for governmental stability) supported by Ni symbolic (fox and lion metaphor) Unless 'The Prince" was a satire in which case ENTP is more likely. Well I wrote I agree the enneagram can explain traits MBTI alone can't. But because an INTP could not do that. That's what we can get from the book now that it's published and anybody can have access to it, but nothing points towards Machiavelli wanting that, in fact it seems he wrote it to get back into the political life of Florence and be a couselor to the prince. Those types could explain that behaviour (ISFJs are commonly 1/2/6 or 9s, type 8 is one of the least likely). Whats evident from his works is his genius in political science. Especially in the situation I was in. " that's not very NTP like to say the least. Type 2 (very XXFJ correlated) can also "become" like 8s according to the theory and type 1 is also in the anger/gut-triad and is very idealist. "*No one man can be a genius in every role, so the state should change generals and politicians rapidly so as to also change strategies and policies. Though I agree ENTP + 8 is possible, type 8 is most strongly correlated with ENTJ (Te doms). Often they are crisp disciplinarians, who know how to be tough when the situation calls for toughness. We are not typing "The Prince" here. Oh, lessons again. An NTJ would gain nothing by revealing all the tricks behind the political curtain. ENTP + 8, even if I don't agree with it, is the best typing someone has presented me against ENTJ. Where is the Ne in his books. Moolfreet- You might be right about E3 rather than E8, I'll have to do more research on that. However, all of these men endlessly experimented with numerous different ideas rather than finding a long-term plan or goal to stick to. Good luck explaining how the Nietzsche quote suggests more Ne-Ti than Te-Ni. If I'm not mistaken I had more examples and conclusions made in such analysis than taken yourself ideas. A ENTP is not so. Maurice Merleau-Ponty: “Machiavelli is the complete contrary of a machiavellian, since he describes the tricks of power and ‘gives the whole show away. To find out what your MBTI personality type is you need to complete the MBTI questionnaire and take part in a feedback session from a qualified MBTI practitioner.. ENTP's are good at playing with it. ) What I don't get is the link you seem to see between enneagram and political views/opinions. Machiavelli is a very difficult personality to nail down. impeccable : to answer what you wrote "machivellianism : The political doctrine of Machiavelli, which denies the relevance of morality in political affairs and holds that craft and deceit are justified in pursuing and maintaining political power. "However, all of these men endlessly experimented with numerous different ideas rather than finding a long-term plan or goal to stick to" All he has ever wanted was the good of the people, he has always worked towards that, and the greater good/being vision driven are common Ni themes. This whole argument is a joke. "One who deceives will always find those who allow themselves to be deceived. You are in the best place to test MBTI and learn what type Nicolas Machiavel/Niccolo Machiavelli likely is!. I already explained how this Merleau-Ponty doesn't prove what it suggests and even so it's about actual opinions and not manner. He was also very directive, clear and concise to a point where it's hilarious (where NTPs tend to overcomplicate things lol :p), he made efficiency the point of the book and was harsh against rulers who weren't : "Extraverted thinking types abhor confusion, inefficiency, half measures, anything that is aimless and ineffective. So I stand by my position, Machiavelli was not a machiavellian himself. He was the "the end justifies the means" textbook NTJ. I too have the book and know exactly what its content is. "* Disorder and conflict is a political good as it creates dynamism in the state (more Ne-Ti than Ni-Te)" NJs are not SJs. I wouldn't say being a 3 would give more of an argument for an ENTP. He's a good guy, but machiavellian still. I only chose ISFJ 8 arbitrarily, as it is the exact opposite of ENTP. ”, he was a black-or-white thinker, something is works or not, there's no middle-ground, made categorical/one-way-of-doing-things-good rules every paragraph. I feel like machiavellian would mean evil to you and that it's somehow related to NTJ. So the argument "* The man himself was known to change faces and personalities according to whom he was with" on CT is also a 3 trait and not an ENTP argument. I don't even know what it's supposed to suggest. Welcome to MBTIBase - PersonalityBase, here you can learn about Nicolas Machiavel/Niccolo Machiavelli MBTI type.. The third point is 3 and not ENTP and the last one. @Moolfreet: What you are saying is just the description of how governments and dictatorships work as explained in "The Prince". Discover Array, and more, famous people, fictional characters and celebrities here!. " His goal was the greater good but he still was a "the end justify the means" kind of guy. Machiavelli says the ruler must do things for the good of the realm regardless of the morality. He explicitly writes that one must anticipate problems long beforehand to reduce the impact luck/chance can have, and be left improvising. About the Merleau-Ponty quote : the point is that the consequence of the wide distribution of "The Prince" is that the people now know how the power works. Thinking – Feeling, represents how a person processes information. Thinking means that a person makes a decision mainly through logic.. ", "Man must wear one face in public and another in private. The only argument people make against ENTP is ENTJ. ) can look somewhat like ENTJs because 8s are the traditional "ends justify the means" type who have a tendency to be Machiavellian. They don't "fear" social changes, the possible/theoretical changes they have not expierienced. It's clear he wanted the greater good, but I don't see how it disqualifies ENTJ, or even makes ENTP more likely. And CT isn't into stereotypes. Back to Machiavelli, I only read "The Prince", but if he was an 8, then it would be completely crushing his MBTI type because he was clearly not a theoretician, or was interested at all in consistency. I know it is a rare, but not unheard of, combination. Others would argue that it's more probable he was ENTP because he was a republican. But nothing indicates that this was what Machiavelli wanted, what we know is that he wrote it only for his prince at the time, and he clearly states in the book that he wants him to be some kind of "messiah" to unify Italy. He likes to show ideas and theorize all leaders, kings, princes studied to create his theory and compare the actions of each other to show what would be the effective action for such a situation - which could be a Ne-Ti-Si connection. " I don't like hypotheticals in typing. ENTP's are impulsive. To me the way he makes categorical, universal claims every three lines screams Ni ^^ I read that the Discourses are "a series of lessons on how a republic should be started and structured". He may have aspired to republicanism but there's also a whole "Empiricism and realism versus idealism" section in wiki. Virtu aims at predicting fortuna (chance, luck or fortune). INFPs, like most introverts, are quiet and reserved. They prefer not to talk about themselves.. He looks like Jim Carey in here. After that they don't even bother to explain how his writing style his Ne-Ti (though it's they're whole point) and just give quotes randomly. NJ revolutionnaries are commonplace "* History reveals universal patterns which should steer our political decisions (more Ne-Ti than Ni-Te)" wait WHAT xD. On the other hand, an ISFJ 8 might be very opinionated, argumentative, anti-authority, and eager for change for an ISFJ, but that does not change their Myers-Briggs type. Every person’s preference can be found on a spectrum, so just choose the letter you identify with most.. ENTP 8s are typically more down-to-earth and and open to authoritarian ideas than most ENTPs, but the qualities of E8 and ENTP do not by any means contradict one another. Machiavelli himself was not Machiavellian in everything. Why is Machiavelli an ISTP. Finally, the most obvious is to see it as a ENTx. All of those traits make him an ENTJ archetype. EXXJs think categorically and are the kind have clear-cut opinions about almost everything, EXTJs in particular love to express their judgements (which is extroverted) and be confrontationnal. And loving debates is in no way more ENTP than ENTJ. I am still not decided on his type yet but I think it is safe to say he is an ENTx type 3. the governments of the people are better than those of princes. " doesn't sound this P now, does it.
. Celebrity Types has made a strong argument for Machiavelli being Ne/Ti, given his highly adaptable, experimental, and ideologically diverse nature, and you have done little to refute that with regard to cognitive functions. Besides, Machiavelli himself probably did not agree with his arguments in The Prince. He was goal oriented, a long-term planner (= fortuna vs virtu isn't a concept an improvising ENXP would create, it's the opposite of the way they work), made assumptions/claims based on almost nothing concrete every page and made them universal facts, all of this is so Ni I can't see a ENTP doing them. Machiavelli is a man who enjoyed political debates. His book is based only on the ends justify the means. And "The Prince" was meant for his Prince at the time, not to reveal what happens behind the curtain. :p I tried but I can't see him as an ENTP. I feel like you have someone specific in mind and the description you give makes me think of a sexual 6 (far more likely for an ISFJ) : very agressive/angry (sexual 6s are often described as people who could become violent at any moment, and are often mistaken for 8s), dominating, and definitely anti-authority. Type 3 also strongly correlates with Te. If you enjoyed this entry, find out about the personality types of Writers characters list.. I will try to do more research on him deeper in his works and see if shot some conclusion, but historical figures who do not reveal much and use more masks and sultilidade is complicated to find a defined type. He was an empiricist and a realist. '”I think it is a very well known fact, at least its historically more likely, that Machiavelli never endorsed the brutality and deceit used by politicians and kings (as described in The Prince). "Your arguments seem based much more on type stereotypes rather than cognitive functions. I had such necessiade to govern the outside world, but to advise. " If you have access to his mind, please share it with us. I think he could be a ENTP. What makes me think that it could be a ENTP, is the focus he had in leading and analyze the way they acted to arrive at the conclusion. He hated ineficiency, what's unpredictible, was directive, categorical, structured, had no care for theoretical consistency as long as his rules where followed, useful and practical, he was looking for having responsability, influence and decisions to make. In fact the main philosophical concept he is known for is that of "fortuna" vs "virtu". In this site you can find out which of the 16 types this character 'Nicolas Machiavel/Niccolo Machiavelli' belongs to!. When you read The Prince it's clear he thinks in terms of efficiency>all, concrete/pragmatical application, and long-term planning, that's written black on white. I think "The Prince" should be read and understood in the time frame and historical perspective of that time. the prince was not a satire this is the common mistake everyone made about machiavel, he was not a cynical but clearly want to instaure order when his country was unstable. Machiavelli condoning the use of planning, causality, and always keep away from the people. An ISFJ + 8 is very unlikely I think, given that type 8 is a EXTX/EXTJ type, an IXFX + 8 is almost impossible.
Nicolas Machiavel/Niccolo Machiavelli
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